INTERVIEW: Al Jourgensen – Ministry

It’s often said that turbulent times can lead to art addressing such topics, and that’s often the case in music, with many bands frequently dedicating entire records to tackle social issues and other pertinent topics of their time. The latest example of a band taking society to task is industrial metal titans MINISTRY, who are taking aim at increasingly controversial politics of both their native United States and the world at large with their fourteenth studio album, AmeriKKKant. Just ahead of that album’s release, we had the chance to catch up with front man and band leader Al Jourgensen to talk politics, the evolution of MINISTRY as a band and what lies ahead for one of industrial metal’s most outspoken figureheads.

At the time of this chat, we’re currently just over a week away from AmeriKKKant being released – how do you feel about it finally going out to the world?

Al: Oh I’m exhausted, this has been going on for months. I’ve been so worried, and it’s kind of this dichotomous feeling because in one sense this record is about the system that produces people like Donald Trump and others around the world, whether it’s Russia, China, the Philippines, blab bla bla. On the other hand, it’s like there’s so many blazing current events going on that you feel like your album is gonna be dated or timed if it doesn’t get out soon enough, so it’s more of a matter of relief that it’s finally coming out and it seems to be coming out at just the right time for what’s going on, because this is like seriously not an anti-Trump record, it’s a record that’s anti and against the system that produces Trumps. And Trumps all over the world, not just America, all over the world. I mean, you have your own shit in the UK here with your Brexit shit and it’s the same, so you know, what’s the problem here? Why do we keep voting against our own interests? Why do we keep allowing these people to come into power that are all of the same ilk? They’re all run by the same plutocracy, whether it be a Boris Johnson or a Nigel Farage or a Trump or a Putin, it’s all a kleptocracy and we keep doing this. We saw it in the 1930s even as we saw the rise of fascism across Europe, and we keep going back to this and nobody either remembers history or nobody cares. But this is much more of a statement against the system than it is against the cyst. And the cysts are the people that they keep throwing at us to be our rulers. And so in that sense I’m very relieved that the record’s finally coming out.

And of course, this is obviously the first MINISTRY record in five years…

Al: I think it’s four or five, yeah.

There was a point in time after the last one where we almost very much were not expecting to ever see another MINISTRY record too.

Al: Well, me too. I mean, I remember when Mikey died, it was like I could’ve done the easy thing and made a quick MINISTRY record and cashed in on his death and like this and that and made a lot of money but it just seemed really distasteful. So I decided to do a SURGICAL METH MACHINE record instead and just sit in and get my artistic thoughts out in a way that could be heard, with an engineer and a computer, and just did that for a while. But about halfway through that record we were informed that before Mikey’s death, contracts were signed for me to play Europe for a couple of months and so I had to go and put together the new people, the new band, and we went out and played and I did it basically fussing and screaming and kicking and just decided okay, it’s either that or I’m gonna wind up in court for the next ten years. So I went out and did that, and after about two weeks I started thinking like “Wow, this band’s actually pretty good playing the old stuff so why don’t we when the tour’s over go and book like a week in the studio and just see what we sound like playing live and just riffing on new riffs?”. And about 75-85% of the record was written in that one week on this album with just a live band playing, which is the first time I’ve been in a studio with a full band since probably Filth Pig in 1994/95, so it’s been a while. And it was really fulfilling; I mean, it was a gas, I couldn’t believe like how much fun it was again to just be with like-minded people and friends in a collaborative effort, to actually make things work. So, you know, we did that one week and the next six months I spent time in the studio with a computer and the engineer layering things and getting guest DJs and cellists and other people to come in and help make this record what it is.

You mention there the new lineup and guests, and you’ve got the likes of Burton C. Bell, DJ Swamp and Arabian Prince all across the record. What was it like getting all of those people involved in the process and what do you feel they all brought to the album?

Al: Well, Burton was just hanging out for the whole record, he had some time off from FEAR FACTORY and he was a neighbour of mine in L.A. not too far away and just hanging around the studio all the time. And we have one rule in the studio in MINISTRY, and it’s like “If you’re in the studio, make yourself fucking useful”, so like I put him to the task of doing some shit and he nailed it. And then we had other people coming, like DJ Swamp had just severed ties with BECK I guess, I don’t know the whole story and I’m not gonna comment. And ARABIAN PRINCE from NWA who I met at a trade show and realised that our aesthetics were quite similar and races and all this shit that people deem important slant aside, we were of the same ilk, so he was part of the process. And Lord of the Cello I met at a flea market in Pasadena, California, who was busking there – a mid 60s guy with a math professorship from MIT, and just decided that this quirky bunch of people would be the perfect way to kind-of get our narrative out. I mean, basically, I really do consider this album to be the audio counterpart to what you see visually in something like Black Mirror, which you just hold up a mirror or take a snapshot of society at the time and say okay, this is where we’re at, this is where we’re going and is this where you wanna go? Think about it.

You mentioned before that AmeriKKKant isn’t strictly a “Fuck Donald Trump” record, however everything that’s been publicly released from the album so far has seemed to show quite a distinctively political overtone, which is understandable given where the world’s at right now, particularly the US. Going into the creative process right from the start, was the intention always to make such a statement piece with this record?

Al: No, it’s a little more complex than that. I mean, basically, like I said we went to Europe and we decided we sounded good and came back and jammed and came up with these great riffs. And then the election happened, and I knew it was going in that direction after Brexit and after other things that’d gone on in governments in Europe. I remember I went to sleep on election night literally 8:00 in the evening when the election was still up for grabs, and my girlfriend stayed up all night wringing her hands about it and waking me up every two hours going like “Oh, he won this state” and I was like “Whatever, I already know what’s going on” at that point. This is a complete recreation, a cyclical interpretation of the 1930s with the rise of fascism in Europe, and I see this all over the globe. And so I just went to bed and woke up the next morning, and that was the moment where I decided that yes, okay, maybe it’s time for MINISTRY to do another record and put my little spin on it. But from there, we already had the songs we’d jammed. We didn’t necessarily know what we wanted to do with it yet, we’d been in the studio a week and we’d come up with these riffs. But then that was the catalyst, like saying okay let’s make these riffs into something that means something to the current sociological era that we’re in.

So it was more a case of already just having the songs, and the subject matter just naturally happening during the process? 

Al: Exactly, it’s a long strange road to the completion of this record, which is why I’m like so relieved that it’s finally coming out. Because so much happens on a weekly basis around the world now because everything is so hyper-accelerated not only through social media but just because of social tendencies and governmental tendencies and policies that we have now where everything’s accelerated, so I was almost thinking that this album was going to be an anachronism before it was ever out, but thank god it’s coming out now at what seems like exactly the right time. So it’s all good, but it’s a long and strange road how this record ever got to be made.

Thematically, the whole idea of political critique is something you obviously explored previously in Ministry with the George W. Bush administration on the trilogy of Houses of the Molé, Rio Grande Blood and The Last Sucker. How do would you compare the approach of those records to what you’re doing on AmeriKKKant?

Al: Yeah, it’s completely different because I was angry at the Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld three-headed monster and our war in Iraq and all this, and it was much more of a direct assault on individuals, which I now almost regret. I think they’re good albums, I think they’re just misguided in a sense that, for instance, you go into a doctor and they say you have a cyst on your neck. A huge boiling boil of pus on your neck. And the doctor removes it but doesn’t ask or question why it’s there, he just removes it and you feel fine for a few days, but the underlying thought is that it’s probably cancer that caused that cyst and why did the doctor not look into the cancer aspect of it and why you’re getting cysts? So yes, we have a boil on our neck now. We will soon remove him, but that doesn’t change the system or the cancer that’s caused the boil, whereas with the Bush albums I was really railing against the boil or the cyst on your neck, and I think this one has really progressed a little bit more towards questioning what keeps people voting against their own interests and everything, and just having these cysts or boils being in a position of power? So it’s obviously the system that has cancer and that’s what we need to look at.

So it’s more a look at the direct issue this time, rather than the individuals that get pinned to it?

Al: Right. It’s a little bit more abstract in its initial hearing but it’s all about the same thing, it’s that things are fucked up. Now, things weren’t fucked up by Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld, which is where I was mistaken, and this one is not against Trump. I mean, Trump is just low-hanging fruit – there’s so many bands that’ve put out “I hate fuckin’ Trump” albums and all this, and rappers and that, but they’re missing the point, as I did in the early 2000s. We’re gonna keep getting Trumps and Bushes and Reagans and Nigel Farages etc etc from Brexit to Marine Le Pen in France, and these people keep popping up because the system is flawed, and that’s what needs to be tackled here. I mean, it’s very similar to the Me Too movement, which I’m really a part of in spite of my past which has been well documented, it’s that we’re railing against who grabbed who’s ass, who looks at who’s tits, who makes each other uncomfortable on a date, and not railing against the fact that women make 73 cents on a dollar compared to a man and that our educational system and our societal norms are geared towards making men able to do whatever they want without fear of repercussion and women only grabbing onto powerful men as the only way of escape from a dreary life because they have no avenues of their own, they have to grab onto a man, which explains groupies and this and that. Why don’t we have women power-brokers? So I’m really into this movement but we’ve trivialised it like we trivialise everything else into such a state that people are just like; like out of the 60s there was like mass movements, million people marches and all this shit and all we got out of it really was Woodstock, bell-bottoms and LSD. And I’m afraid that this new movement of mass populist movement is just gonna come out with the same thing where it’s just trivialised into like okay well we get cheap electronics now and free music? That doesn’t quite make it for me, we really need to get to the root of the problem.

You’ve always come across as quite an outspoken character – do you care in any way about the backlash talking about politics is sure to cause from certain sections of society?

Al: Well, I got a little bit of a taste of that with the Bush administration after the second record, we did Rio Grande Blood and then I had like three audits by the IRS in one year for business corporations, personal corporations and whatever, but either way the IRS is calling up my ass, they tap my phones, this is the land of freedom and democracy, right? So I’ve had a taste of that, so I’m quite prepared, especially in this nuclearized, hyper social media contact that we have now, which, we started out with the internet as the age of information and it’s now turned into the age of disinformation, and so I’m quite ready for the trolls, that’s what I’m saying. They really don’t bother me, especially since most of them aren’t even real, they’re bots, and we’ve already had a lot of backlash against songs like Antifa and Wargasm on this record, and I’m sure Twilight Zone and the new video we’ve got coming out too, Victims of a Clown will also spur some really heinous shit coming my way, but hey man, that comes with the territory. If you’re gonna speak out about this shit, don’t expect to have a life of all like roses and crystal vases and all that shit, y’know? It’s part of the territory. I mean, there’s nothing wrong with just singing about relationships and personal mishaps and this and that, and making a billion dollars off it if you will, that’s fine if that’s what you’re comfortable with. But I seem to be more comfortable in kind-of stating the obvious that society needs a re-check.

You mentioned there briefly the video for Twilight Zone, that’s been directed by Chris Roth. As we speak, Nuclear Blast have today just put that out to the world- who came up with the overall concept for that and what was the process of getting it all together like?

Al: Oh, I work with Chris Roth like hand-in-glove, it’s a beautiful thing. I hope to have him do the rest of my videos for the rest of time and memorial. He’s a man after my own heart and brain and soul, it was just great. I mean, we just sit down and we literally just scribble things out and drink a bottle of sake or something and just spout out ideas and the next thing you know, it happens. I mean, it’s a real joy and pleasure to work with somebody like that, and that’s what’s amazing about this whole band that’s been put together for this record, it’s like the same kind of thing – we just get drunk and scribble shit down and talk amongst ourselves and shit happens, it’s an amazing process, that’s what art’s supposed to be like.

So, is Chris handling more of the videos on this album cycle then, or?

Al: Well, we have a guy named Ben Garcia out of El Paso that does all of our live videos and we do the same process where we just talk, scribble shit and then it happens, and so our live videos for this tour are just absolutely fucking immense. Like, as a matter of fact, two nights ago I watched not only the Twilight Zone video, snippets of the new video coming out next week which is called Victims of a Clown, which is another song on the record that was done by Chris Roth, along with the stuff for the rest of the songs on the record we’re gonna play live, but all of our background videos are Ben Garcia, and I think we’ve actually become PUNK FLOYD. I mean, it’s kinda weird but I like it, it’s like dude, we had some mushrooms the other night and we just sat around and watched our background videos for the shows that are coming up and it was a really good trip, so please come prepared when you come see MINISTRY, we have become PUNK FLOYD.

So you guys are heading back out on the road next month with CHELSEA WOLFE then?

Al: Right, yeah, that’s gonna be a great, great show. I love CHELSEA WOLFE man.

Obviously, the first leg of touring you did at the tail end of last year, you just had Antifa and Wargasm from the new stuff…

Al: Yeah, and we had DEATH GRIPS opening for us which was also really fucking great – it’s not just like a sausage-fest of metal bands playing or whatever, it was really invigorating to see fans that specifically came there to see DEATH GRIPS, or I’m sure in the future to specifically see CHELSEA WOLFE, and then stick around for us old farts and then get their minds blown with the same kind of aesthetic, only delivered in a different weaponry, you know what I’m saying? So I’m really into this, I think there really needs to be more of this actually, instead of just sausage-fests.

And now, heading back out this time, the whole record’s going to be out for people to hear. How much of the live set is going to get tweaked and adapted to accommodate that new stuff on this next run?

Al: Oh, it’s all about the new stuff. I mean, we’ll play some of the old sausage-fest hits for the kids, and they won’t go home anything but tired, but the thing is that we really believe in the narrative of this record for the times that are happening now. I can’t stress enough, like, now coming to see a MINISTRY show on this tour will be like having your own private screening of like a new Black Mirror episode or something, so it’s more like that.

You’ve got that US run, and then you’re back over here in the UK and in mainland Europe over the summer…

Al: July and August, yeah

What has your relationship with these shores been like over the years – what keeps you coming back to the UK and places like that?

Al: Well, you know, it’s just another place to play, it’s no different really. This is where nationalism really fucking gets me, it’s like you know, boundaries divided by governments does not have anything to do with actual global reality. The point is that we’re all fucking human beings and there’s no difference in a crowd in Norway, in England, or Arkansas in the United States. There’s no difference – people are fucking people. And people have gotta get over this, governments telling them that like, okay if you cross this boundary and a person has slightly darker skin, that they’re fucked up and you should be wary of them. That’s the classic fascist playbook of fear-based ruling, and also conquer and divide, which they’re doing with social media. So really, I mean, the globe is the globe – we’re all fucking human beings and so it doesn’t matter where I play, it’s the same audience.

Is there anything else on the cards for you for the rest of 2018 and beyond? Solely MINISTRY work or might we potentially see activity from some of your other projects like SURGICAL METH MACHINE?

Al: Well actually it’s the entire year and beyond, but we’re also halfway through making another REVOLTING COCKS record too, which I thought was like the perfect antidote or palate cleanser after a fine French meal. Say MINISTRY is the fine French meal, REVOLTING COCKS will be your palate cleanser afterwards, and we’re about halfway through that right now, so expect that to be the next thing that comes out of my camp.

Just to close things off, is there anything you’d like to say to the readers of Distorted Sound Magazine who might be fans of you and your work?

Al: Um, well, no. Just come and enjoy yourself and hopefully bring enough psychedelics with you where the message sinks in.

AmeriKKKant is available on Friday 9 March via Nuclear Blast Records.

Like MINISTRY on their official Facebook.